Bux.to, Isabelmarco, Titancash (ptctalk.com, advercash, turbobux, titanclicks, ubux) , NorthOwl network (emoneyspace, extra10, buxout, earn3, clicksia, incentria), Taketheglobe, Ptcpay (ptcpay, ptctalk.org, ubux, buxor, bux1, buxtro) hundreds of 15 years old kids using ready scripts (buxhost) and a few more scammers ruined the PTC industry. If you want to lose money, just pick randomly a PTC and buy referrals. Even and the most "trusted" admins have stolen thousands of dollars. Seems that PTC means Pay To Click, not Paid To Click.
You've been warned: "Playing" with pennies may result hundreds of dollars loss.
Attention: Probably you'll find content that you won't like at all.
Attacking this blog in (full of scammers) forums, like emoneyspace will be appreciated.
In case you are looking for how to cheat on PTC sites, guess what! PTC sites are a step forward than you are and are already cheating on you!
This blog will not be updated anymore, since there is no point to do so. Scamming philosophy remains the same, names are changing only, something like [name]bux That's why many sites mentioned below are dead now. These sites were up and running during 2008.
Also there is no point to maintain a graveyard (aka scam list). Thousands of sites that came and gone makes a PTC scam list almost impossible to handle.
My PTC story: I found PTC (bux.to was the first) sites in Jan-2008. Sounds funny, but yes I was dreaming earnings from bux.to referrals!! I did not invest a single penny from my own pocket and earned (from my clicks and promotion) a few hundreds dollars. On Jan-2009 I stopped clicking and quit all PTC sites, when I realized how some very "trusted" programs were working (call me ponzi scheme).
In contrast with the majority of PTC sites this blog was created on 1-Jan-2009 and goes on...
Feel free to leave comments below. (spam will be deleted asap)
Introduction
Theoretically PTC stands for "Paid To Click". A PTC is (theoretically again) a program which creates a middle man connection: Advertisers are buying traffic and members are earning money visiting advertisers' websites. Here we can see the main disadvantage of a PTC: Members are forced to visit websites and are clicking only for money, not because are interested. This is the reason why PTC is a failed business model and that's why PTC sites are destined to scam. Traffic quality from PTC sites is extremely low. Only if an advertiser wants to boost alexa ranking of his site will buy PTC traffic.
Actually PTC stands for Ponzi To sCam. The majority of PTC sites will live for a few weeks or months only. That's because advertisers will not buy so expensive advertising packages, when it is known that traffic quality is very low. Self sponsored ads and fake referrals - aka bots - is the only solution...
PTC sites have as only target to take advantage of some people's hope of easy gain. Don't forget that money does not grow on trees - that would be nice though!
"The more you invest the more you'll earn" can be a good manipulating slogan. Most clickers are underage and it is easy to trick them, since an underage person has almost no experience in real life. If you are an underage person STOP clicking and quit PTC sites right now. And don't forget that you must be at least 18 years old in order to be eligible to create a Alertpay/Paypal account.
PTC Sites are nothing more than ponzi schemes. And all ponzi schemes - no exceptions here - have a very painful death, for the investors of course.
We can say that there are two categories of PTC sites:
i) Bux sites: Sites paying more than $0.005/click with 50+% ref bonus. These programs are total scams. Traffic quality is extremely low, since everyone - owners and members - is interested only in referrals. Usually ads (only self sponsored, no one will pay $10+/1000 clicks) in a bux site are other bux sites with the ref link of the owner. Each time you receive payment from a bux another member (yes, someone like you) loses the same amount of money.
ii) Aurora sites: Sites paying $0.001-$0.0025 with 20%-40% ref bonus. Most of them have high payout, sometimes $5+. That's why most members will quit, because no one wants to click 6 months for $5. And that's why these programs can survive even and for years. Traffic quality from aurora sites is still low (aurora are using non-friendly advertiser scripts too), forcing owners to use self sponsored ads, although some advertisers will buy traffic. That's because prices are lower, ~$3/1000. Aurora sites are unstable too, but in comparison with bux sites the ratio is 1:10.000.000, meaning that aurora are closer to the acronym PTC. That does not mean that an aurora cannot turn into scams. The only difference here is that a bux will go scam in 2-3 months (average) and aurora in some cases can last for years. Best example is theclickers.net, which lasted ~3 years.
So, are all PTC programs scams? The answer is no. With the hard competition, which is a result of the easiness anyone (even and without the necessary knowledge/funds) can start a PTC, potential earnings are extremely low and do not worth our time. If you want to join a PTC program, do it just for fun. Avoid bux sites and join auroras only. But don't expect to earn serious cash, just a few dollars per month.
Chapter 1: Advertisers
Paid To Click, right? Where are the advertisers then? The truth is that almost all PTC sites do not have advertisers. Because no one wants the expensive and low quality traffic a PTC offers. How low is PTC traffic quality? It can be considered and as a waste of server resources!
When you are clicking:
It is not difficult to guess the answers in these questions, we have just found some good reasons which are explaining why most advertisers will not buy traffic from PTC sites.The average cost is $10/1000 clicks (bux sites). But this quality of traffic worths for less than $1/1000 clicks. Advertisers are not members of charity foundations and are looking for real humans only, humans who will be interested in (= buy) their products/services. Advertisers are NOT looking for robots or autoclicking software. It is common sense that, robots and autoclickers do not buy products/services, humans only can do that.
And yes, PTC sites are full of robots and autoclickers. Autoclickers also are doing a lot of damage and at PPC programs. But google is google and at least delivers interested visitors (plus the thousands coders who are working there), while a PTC can be a 15 year old kid with visitors who are not interested at all.
Although it is difficult to prove it with a screenshot (but you can do the same thing), here is an example: An ad at "taketheglobe.com" was about a video at youtube. Of course you know that youtube has a viewer counter.
Total views of this video: ~240.000
Total clicks of this ad at taketheglobe: ~290.000 (!)
Website received in the best case only the 80% of the total clicks!
How many users really watched this video: Good question!
Personal experience: I converted my balance into ads in a scam site. 1000 clicks I "bought", max ~100 clicks my page received!!
An advertiser can't be sure even if he'll receive all the hits he bought. Only a few sites can "disable" Esc/Stop and at least advertisers will receive all hits.
Actually owners don't care at all. The last thing an owner will deal with, is the advertisers and therefore the ads. Most important is the script which controls the fake refs (aka bots).
And don't tell me that you didn't notice that: Most ads in a PTC are other PTC sites with a ref link!!. Also the majority of PTC sites are charging less than paying. Example: $10 per 1000 clicks, while site is paying $15 per 1000 clicks (user click + ref click). Even if a PTC has tons of advertisers will still lose money.
Almost all (99.9%) PTC sites do not have advertisers. Owners have to place self sponsored ads.
Taketheglobe.com used a different model: In order to attract advertisers, owner was selling ads only $25/100.000 clicks (a very good price for PTC hits), but was paying to his members $750/100.000 clicks! Because price was very low many advertisers bought traffic. That's how taketheglobe had 100+ ads. Admin of taketheglobe was accusing bux.to - bots and long payment delays, what else? - but he did exactly the same thing with his site: Bots and long payment delays!! Where is TTG now? RIP...
Chapter 2: Referrals
PTC Industry turned to a total scam mostly because of referrals. "Tell your friends and earn more" is the slogan. Yeah, right...
Ref bonus is 50-100% in most sites and it is very high of course. Ref bonus shouldn't be more than 30%, average 5-10%. Yes 5% ref bonus. It is very low, but very sustainable. Don't forget, we are talking about Paid To CLICK, not Paid To REFER.
A site which pays $0.01 per click, in total pays to its members $15-20/1000 clicks. Already we explained why advertisers will not pay more than $1/1000 for PTC traffic. Self sponsored ads is the only way and...
How owner earns money then?
Simple answer, very simple: Bots and premium memberships. I really wonder why a PTC has a "premium" membership option. Higher rates and more self sponsored ads are the benefits of premium membership. But why? Can you tell me a good reason?
Bot referrals = Fake referrals = Robots which will give you a few clicks and then stop OR Robots which will be very active and will give to member virtual profit and to site huge debts.
Don't expect profit of course. In case #1 it is obvious that member will not have profit. In case #2 the result is a huge debt for site. Only a few lucky (and probably *** kissing) members will be paid, before site dies.
Why bots will not give you profit?
Bots don't click ads usually, because there is no reason to click: Almost all ads are... self-sponsored! Also owners, if are not fool enough, will not cheat the few advertisers they may have. Average price is $1/bot and usually this is the only income owner has from a bot. Since bots don't click on ads, there are no extra earnings from advertisers (if any). Income for site from bots is only the $1 members are paying per bot. If a bot is very active site will have loss. That's why in most cases bots will stop before the $1 limit, user will lose money not site.
Some retards (read below) do not have problem if their refs are bots! Bots are very active at the beginning. But after a few days, bots are "dying", sometimes all of them at the same day!
Owners have everyday available lots of 500 ref packs for sale. PTC sites with millions - according to their stats - of members, in their forums have only a few thousands registered members (bots don't talk obviously). Best example is bux.to: 12+ million members in main site and... ~65.000 in forums! (stats taken on August-2008)
Some admins admitted that only the 10-20% of their members are unreferred. Most members are registering following a ref link (downline builder, ref deals/exchanges/from a blog etc). How is it possible then, for a site with a few thousands members for example to have everyday plenty of 500 ref packs available?
Many people are trying to hack PTC sites, some of them successfully. Also sometimes admins do not have any problem to say publicly (but indirectly) that their members are completely idiots. Have a look:
Bots Pic 1 (admin of crewbux)
Bots Pic 2 (taketheglobe index - bot scripts)
Bots Pic 3 (timebux index - bot scripts)
Bots Pic 4 (reliableclix - lol, very reliable - hacked admin panel)
Bots Pic 5 (07bux - was using same script with bux.to - hacked admin panel)
Bots Pic 6 (taketheglobe - hacked admin panel)
Bots Pic 7 (What a nice script ptcpay is!)
Bots Pic 8 (Bananabux - Site lasted more than a month - 40 days - and this is a great achievement!)
How can I understand if a site sells bots?
All PTC sites with "buy/rent refs option" are selling bots. Some sites may not sell bots, but are using other ponzi tricks such as multiple upline & split clicks. For example if a ref clicks 4 ads/day, 2 ads will be given to upline no1 and 2 to upline no2 etc.
If you want to buy referrals better burn your money. At least, fire will warm you!
Since most PTC sites are running with self sponsored ads, bots are unavoidable. To make it more clear: All PTC sites with "buy/rent refs option" are selling bots or are using other ponzi tricks.
Even and one of the biggest PTC sites, neobux.com sells rents bots. A smart bot script and smarter administrative team guarantees that most users will not understand that their refs are bots. All standard members do not have profit from rented refs and many golden members are complaining too. Few days after first day of renting - somehow - ref clicks are studying the free-fall phenomenon!
Seems that neobux now cannot attract easily new members (= new investors) as it used to. After direct ref limitation, new tricks will be invented, tricks that will possibly help neobux survive. Direct ref limitation is an excellent reason why neobux is nothing more than a ponzi scheme: Active human referrals are doing a lot of damage to neobux, like in every bux site. Therefore members must be forced to buy some bots.
But why neobux survived until now (and possibly will survive for a long time)? Instead of promising high ROI and as result creating extremely high debt, neobux earns only a few cents per bot per month. A classic bux will try to earn much more and will fail soon. For example if neobux receives $10 from a user, returns back $9.60-9.80. User cannot understand if has earned money or not - don't forget $0.04/day from self sponsored ads.
Have a look here or here for some interesting stats (thx Sabbie @ talkptc.com). How many (human) members neobux has? Do the same and for bux.to: You'll be impressed with the stats of this 12 million baby! Bux.to is up and running for years but it is a well known scam. That means scams do not necessarily disappear.
Chapter 3: Payment delays
One of the biggest scammers, founder of incentria, clicksia, earn3, extra10, buxout and earnmoneyspace proved, with the waiting line feature, that long payment delays mean lack of funds. A "bux" site cannot pay more than 10-15 standard members everyday (average 3-5). FYI 60 business days are ~85 calendar days, almost 3 months. Usually within 90 days are being paid less than 500 members, while site can have for example thousands members!
Another scammer, owner of taketheglobe.com, with the same waiting line feature verified this statement.
Long payment delays mean that a site is trying to find money from bot/premium sales. Remember that advertisers are... absent! When site has problems (ponzi schemes will not last forever) payment delays are getting even longer, even and more than 60 business days. Poor reasons will be invented, such as "we have to double-check accounts, many users are cheating", "admin had an accident/is on holidays etc and will be back next week/month" and many more... And of course site has problems because members stopped investing, so simple! Finally site dies and owner can start a new one, using the same recipe.
Instant payments?
The truth is that instant payments are too risky. Only neobux.com seems to be safe from hacking attempts, because a team of programmers is working on site's security. I am sure that all members do not have problems with non instant payments, but with max delay 3 days. Remember, when you are investing you are paying them INSTANTLY. But most of them (if have such intentions) will pay you after months!
PTC sites which need to pay more than 3 days are unstable and will die soon or will turn to "bux.to" schemes.
Chapter 4: PTC Scripts*
A script is the necessary software which is required by a (PTC) program in order to run. In this case ads, referrals (bots), balance, instant payments (if supported) etc will be controlled by the functions a script has.
Many programmmers created various PTC Scripts. These scripts are something like a PC game: Release, software is "on stores", legal sales (10%) & and illegal distribution, piracy (90%). Some programmers are thinking how to scam and that's why placed hidden backdoors to these scripts. Using these hidden backdoors, they could easily gain access to the admin panel and empty AP/PP account. Distrubutors of illegal copies can place of course extra backdoors.
Most PTC sites are not safe and against autoclicking attempts: Autoclicking software is updated often, in contrast with the majority of PTC sites, in which script is not updated because owners don't care/don't have money/don't know. All PTC scripts are not advertiser-friendly. There are tricks, which can help a member to avoid viewing an ad.
Most famous scripts (2010)
Buxhost: A big LOL is enough. With $25/month kids (aka "trusted" admins) can start their own PTC in 5 mins.
Gen2/Gen3/Gen4/Gen5/.../Gen[i] by ptcpay: Gen[i] means that you have to expect hundreds of new scams which will attempt to steal your money - buxhost will contribute a lot of course. From now on - and officially - Gen series will offer a great bot script for better scamming experience. Just in case you have doubts about bots...
* It is a bit outdated but until now nothing have changed, only names. Scamming philosophy remains the same.
Chapter 5: Who is Who
5.1 Admins
In most cases of bux sites we have to deal with rude persons, without marketing knowledge or knowledge of how GPT programs must work. A possible reason is that this type of admin is a KID! Most of them don't know/want to modify a script! The 99.99% bux site admins are big big big scammers. The recipe is simple: Warez, Gen or buxhost script -> a free and good looking template (optional) -> cheap (or free) host & domain -> ready to scam. No need for initial capital or business plans... In rare cases we'll meet an admin who does not know even to add two or more numbers. As a result site has more referrals available for sale than its total members!
Running a real PTC is not easy, that's why most admins will choose the ponzi solution.
Rudeness, threats and lies are on daily basis. Pay them instantly, don't talk, kiss their *** and you may get paid after some months. If you are lucky and meanwhile your favorite trusted admin will not run away with your money. And yes, most admins believe that all members are retards. Some of them really are; usually their award is the word "Moderator" in sites' forums.
"No, we do not sell bots."
But we have a magic secret, that's why we have tons of 500 ref packs available everyday!
"We have access to millions/we are very strong. Click here to donate."
PTC, a charity foundation: please donate admin is so close to buy a playstation/motorbike/car/house. PTC donators are the definition of a retard. Tons of examples: Donate Pic 1, Donate Pic 2, Donate Pic 3, Donate Pic 4 LOL, Donate Pic 5
"New trusted [site], from trusted admin"
The word trust means nothing when we are talking about PTC sites. The last "trusted" admin died with extra10.com and earn3.com
"You are not allowed to violate our TOS - we are."
Terms like: "You are not an employee of [site] and you are not an independent contractor for [site]. We simply create a middle-man connection from the advertiser to the consumer." and at the same time admin requires personal info such as id, phone number, utility bills etc!
"We're proud to scam you". (Official announcement)
Best example was lenkaclix.com, a crappy buxhost site. After site died (it was very unsustainable), admin started... lenkaclix2.com!! Luckily lenkaclix3 never came...
Underage admins will scam soon, because alertpay and paypal does business only with adults, obviously. Sometimes kiddies are creating an alertpay/paypal account using mom's or dad's personal data. But when mommy or daddy discovers what her/his naughty boy/girl did, account suddenly "freezes" and also internet connection stops. Also mommy is pissed because your "trusted" admin wasn't doing his/her homework!
Aurora admins because are running more stable programs, usually do not behave like bux admins. But this does not mean that an aurora admin can't be an as***le.
5.2 Retards
5.2.1 *** kissers
These members are paid per lick and not per click: *** kissers usually are mods or administrators in forums of bux sites. Actually their head is "buried" in admin's ***. Benefits: Faster payments, free referrals/bots even and a monthly wage. Sometimes are acting like they are owners and threating members. Acting like idiots and trying to defend a scam in PTC forums is another duty of *** kissers(Click for Example 1 or Example 2). Finally, slandering members (Example) who are posting the truth and facts about their favorite site is included too. That's why all members hate *** kissers. Don't worry it is easy to spot them: They alwayz spam forums with useless *** kissing posts. And stay far away, *** kissers are mentally disturbed, because are being exposed in several "dangerous" gases.
5.2.2 Big investors
Big investors, are the suckers who bought hundreds even and thousands of bots and believed that big payments are waiting for them! Some of them may receive some payments. With the hot instant cash they pay, they are "feeding" their favorite ponzi scheme (call me PTC here), helping other, "small", members to receive payments. Crewbux and thinkbux had a top 10 of retards. #1 bought more than 25.000 referrals and lost more than $20.000 (Crewbux top10). #7 & #8 are also big retards: almost $0 payments, both lost more than $30.000.
Although big investors have been warned several times that bots will not give them profit, they insist on investing. "We prefer bots, because are more active than real humans", "Thank you admin for selling us bots, you are the best", "We don't care if our refs are bots or humans as long as they click". Actually these guys deserve to lose money.
In many cases big investors (when they realize that chances to receive payment are low) will kiss admin's *** as many times it is necessary. Click for an example
5.3 Cheaters
Kiddies and pathetic "adults" following the same tested recipe: Buy referrals, receive payments and then open a dispute in payment processor. That's why paypal blocked almost all PTC sites. Another recipe is "ref deal cheating". Make an offer (be my ref, I'll pay you $x/100 clicks, or exchange sites) and of course don't pay/click. Cheating in downline builders is also a "good" recipe. However these guys are stealing only a few bucks, while "trusted" admins thousands of dollars.
5.4 "Whining for a penny" members
No, these members are not cheaters or *** kissers. But people who believed that crappy PTC sites will pay them. Active clickers, were clicking for weeks in order to reach minimum payout, but before they ask for payment, "suddenly" site turned to scam. Result: Whines in forums for a few bucks. Soon these members will realize that PTC is "too good to be true".
5.5 Rest members
Me and you. Unfortunately, we discoverd PTC sites and tried to earn some money. Some of us invested and lost money. Others earned. At least we have learned how to deal with online investing programs (yep, stay far away!). Personally I wish I hadn't discovered PTC sites, although I did not lose money. Remember: Almost all Online Investment Programs = Ponzi Schemes
Chapter 6: The ideal PTC
Only real advertisers
And zero self sponsored ads period.
Fast payments (& very low payout)
Real advertisers mean a PTC which is not ponzi scheme. Payments can be very fast because owner has already money and will not have to wait funds from investors. With low and fast payouts, users will "see" very fast money in their AP/PP account and will not have to click for 1 year in order to earn $5.
Sustainable rates
Sustainable means low <$0.004/click. More advertisers will be attracted. These rates will be effective only in case a real script is used. I'll agree that PTC will become a very slow and boring earner, but what did you expect? Millions of dollars?
Ref bonus up to 20-30%, no ref/premium pack sales
Part of sustainable rates, ref bonus is low. Ref click must not be the most important thing at a PTC site, but advertisers. And because we know that ref packs are bot packs actually, site must not offer such options. It is Paid To CLICK, not Paid To REFER/UPGRADE/INVEST
A real PTC script
The most important thing after advertisers: A script which will protect advertisers and ensure that all members will view their ads. Users who are using ESC button and IFrame blockers will not be credited. The same rule applies with users who are surfing at multiple sites at the same time. Autoclickers and exploits, finally, will have as a result a ban only. Script will also include and some advertising filters (demographic etc). If a PTC in future can have a script like this, traffic quality will be better and therefore advertisers won't have problem to pay more than $1/1000 clicks.
Some PTC sites (wordlinx, linkgrand) seem to have real advertisers and sustainable rates. Wordlinx has an advertiser - friendly script, which pauses the timer when the ad tab is not active - although there is a simple trick to bypass it. However the combination $0.001 per click and $10 payout, means that it might take up to 3 years (yes years!) to reach and receive payment even if you are a daily active clicker!! The ideal PTC does not exist. On the other hand, ideal ponzi scheme can be considered a bux, although the money amount which is involved is low. Scammers will have somehow to "gain" experience for biggest tricks...
Chapter 7: PTC life cycle
Mostly this is the life cycle of bux sites. Bux sites average will survive from one week to 3 months. Max bux sites will survive for a year, unless they turn to bux.to schemes (also depends on the number of fools).
Person A says: Hello, I am A. Here is my site [link]. Fast payment (~3 days), low payout ($1-$3), many ads (7+), all self sponsored of course.
Person A is very helpful and active in all forums.
Two to four weeks later...
Person A: Payout now increased ($5-7), standard members will be paid within 15 business days. Bot factory now works 24/7 and produces "clickers" with a good average.
Person A is still helpful and active in forums.
Two to four weeks later...
Person A: Payout now increased ($10), standard members will be paid within 30 business days. Bots are not so active "clickers". Some limitations may be announced.
Person A is not so helpful and active in forums.
Person A: Sorry it is not my fault (but members' fault who didn't invest their life savings, or site was "hacked"), I cannot run this site anymore. Health problems, busy in "real" life, college, exams, family member died etc is a reason which will be given. Site is for sale or gone.
Members cannot contact Person A...
Person A changed his name to Person B.
Person B says: Hello I am B. Here is my site [link].............
This is the life cycle of a bux site in most cases. This scenario of course cannot cover all cases. Many bux sites opened and closed at the same day, while other "dead" sites were up for months even if all members stopped investing!
Chapter 8: Scamming models
Bots and long payment delays, by bux.to
This is the first and most used scamming model, introduced by the leader of scams, bux.to. Referrals which somehow will stop to click at the same day and 1 year payment delays. If you dare to protest (where is my payment, I am waiting for months?) first *** kissers (= forum moderators) will attack and then ban you (=forget payment).
Pay to get paid
Do you want to receive payment? Invest first the 50+% of your next cashout. Non-investors will be deleted.
"Instant" payments
Instant payments script will be ready soon. Estimated time of release is February-31! Premium members will be paid instantly only, when script will be ready. Six months later: Script will be ready soon, be patient (and keep investing of course) we are working on it.
Run a dozen sites
No need for business plan or initial capital. Just open 5, 10, 50 or more programs. Simply, when it is time to pay, change TOS (= payment limitations etc) and after that abandon ship! Not a surprise if out there we can find 1000 scam PTC sites owned by a few people... Just a sample below: ~100 programs are listed - all scams - by 5 different owners, only!
Famous scams used it: bux3, gptnetworks, titancash, northowl network, JJ (Jeffrey Johnson)
"Hit and run", by 15 year old kiddies
With ready script packages - buxhost at the moment - 13-16 yr old kiddies scammed many members. If a kiddie knows php, scamming is bigger and more painful. Most "Hit and run" scams will survive for a few weeks only. Therefore their reputation is low.
Reset balances/referrals or even better delete all members
Easy and simple: Delete all payment requests, reset balances to zero, remove all referrals. Even better is to delete the entire database and make a new "fresh" start! "Nothing happened" according to scammers, just a fresh new start for us, with your money. Register and invest again!
Promote via a forum - cooperate with the owner of the forum
A few years ago it was ptctalk.com (not .org). This famous forum, helped many scammers to promote their programs. Taketheglobe, thinkbux, crewbux, foxcash, xclix and many more PTC sites made their first steps there. Now it is earnmoneyspace/emoneyspace. Cashium is the best example. Seems that in some cases there is cooperation between PTC owners and forum administrators/moderators (not always the most trusted members) in order to mislead members and make them to believe that investing in specific sites is more than safe.
Other models
Click for credits
Payouts are based on the income that the site makes each month
Multi upline - we will not sell bots
"Activate" your account
Direct ref limitation - Better buy our bots!
(mouse over for more info)
And who knows? Many more scamming models to come...
